This is information returned by Robert based on the questionnaire for the associated research projects titled: ‘Footsteps of the Dutch in Australia’; ‘Dutch Contact and Resettlement in Western Australia’; ‘The Evacuation Movement out of the Netherlands East Indies into Australia of Dutch Refugees during and after World War II’, and ‘The Impact of Immigration and Resettlement on Second Generation Dutch’.
PERSONAL DETAILS (please note that all details in this section will remain confidential and will not be included in any publications)
Full Name: Robert Zindler.
Address: 8 Thorp Road, Woronora, Sydney, NSW, Australia.
Phone Number including area code: 02 9521 5212
Email: robertzindler@bigpond.com
Date of Birth: 11 January, 1931. DOA: 1946
Ethnicity (for example Dutch-Indonesian): Dutch.
Ethnicity of partner: Australian.
Ethnicity of parents: Dutch father and Dutch mother.
Marital Status: married
Highest level of education: Technical college.
Citizenship status (Dutch? Australian? Other?): Australian since 1961.
Religious affiliation (if any): None.
FIRST GENERATION MIGRANTS ONLY
In which country were you born? Netherlands East Indies (NEI).
What region was this? Currently Indonesia.
When did you arrive in Australia?
* In January 1946 as refugee from the NEI, by plane.
* Again in June 1952 as a 21 year old immigrant, by plane.
* And again in October 1958 after two years in the U.K., by plane.
Was there much paperwork involved at the time? Can you briefly describe the process? * Applied for self-funded emigration to Australia when in Amsterdam, Holland at
the end of 1951. Entry-permit to Australia approved very quickly. Left Holland by ship, the Kota Baru, for Biak, West New Guinea, in January 1952. Flew by KLM from Biak to Sydney in June 1952.
Which country did you come from? Holland, although born in Jockjakarta, Central Java, from Dutch parents.
Did you travel through other countries in your journey to Australia? Yes, West New Guinea.
Did you arrive by ship or plane? By plane.
If a ship, what was its name? N/A
In what port did you disembark? By plane in Sydney, in June 1952.
What city/town did you first live in? Melbourne.
What was your migration status on arrival? Were you a migrant, a displaced person, a refugee, an evacuee, or did you arrive under the assisted migration, business or skills category?
* An evacuee in 1946.
* A self-funded immigrant in 1952.
* A self-employed person in 1958.
Why did you choose to come to Australia?
* I did not feel I had a successful professional future in Holland and felt an outsider.
* I was very afraid of the Russians, who were only 500 kilometers away from
Holland.
* I liked Australia and its safety and prosperity very much after my first visit in
1946.
Today, with the knowledge that you now have, do you think this was a good decision? Yes, very much indeed.
How many family members did you arrive with? Who were they?
* I arrived in 1946 with both my parents and my two brothers.
* I arrived on my own as a 21 year old migrant in 1952.
Who were the significant others (friends, family, etc) that you left behind?
* My remarried mother, stepfather and siblings in Holland.
* My remarried father, stepmother and half-sister in Biak, New Guinea.
* All my distant family and friends in Holland.
EVACUEES AND/OR MILITARY PERSONNEL FROM THE NETHERLANDS EAST INDIES (1942-1947) ONLY
Where did you live in the Netherlands East Indies (NEI)?
* Jockjakarta, Batavia, Tjiherang, Bandung, Banju Biru, Magelang, Semarang,
Tjimahi, and many intermediate places.
* Morotai (in transit to Australia).
What work did you do there?
* None as a school boy.
* In Tjihapit camp in Bandung (ca. 3 years), as grass cutter, house cleaner, garbage collector, furniture removalist, axeman, fire stoker, kitchen hand, railway worker.
Who was your employer? I suppose the Japanese camp command.
Were you born in the NEI? Yes.
How many years did you spend there? 15 years.
When did you leave? January 1946.
What leisure or recreational activities did you have there?
* Children’s games.
* I was the lead in a play organized by two Catholic friars when 820 of us boys, between 15 and 11 years (the age limit had just been lowered by the Japanese, when our camp – Tjihapit – with 12,000 women and children, was broken up and sent throughout Java) who were left behind and were subsequently sent to the nearby 15th Battalion civilian male camp, to keep us boys occupied, as we no longer had any duties to perform and, in any case, we were increasingly sick from bacillary dysentery and malnutrition.
What was your social status in the NEI? Child and camp worker.
When the Japanese invaded in 1942, what impact did this have on yourself and your family?
We lost the lot: My Grandmother who died in the camp, our home, business, family, friends, all worldly possessions, social life, eventually my father through the break-up of the marriage, an innocent youth.
What impact did the Indonesian struggle for independence have upon your self and your family?
* We were constantly shot at, but were extremely lucky, never having been hurt, and very fearful.
* We ultimately lost the country in which my siblings and I were born.
What was your reason for leaving (feel free to give as many reasons as feels right to you)? We no longer felt safe and felt we had no future there.
How did you leave? By converted bomber plane and subsequently by DC6, from Batavia, via Balikpapan in Borneo, Morotai in the Halmaheras, and Ambon in the Moluccas.
Which city/town in Australia did you come to first? Darwin, and then on to Cloncurry, Brisbane (for one month) and Melbourne (for six months).
Was there a receiving committee or persons that helped you on arrival? Yes, I suppose in Darwin, and then in Brisbane, but I recall almost nothing of them.
Where did you stay? Brisbane – Ipswich – for one month and Melbourne for six months.
What were your living conditions like at the time?
* Absolutely wonderful in “Waycoll” camp or “Camp Victoria”, a military establishment, but with back-to-back bungalows in natural bush settings to house families, ablution blocks and dining messes with trestle tables and bench seats.
* “Pladda” Hotel, Dixon Street, St Kilda, Melbourne, which had been set up for Dutch evacuees from the NEI., with one or two rooms per family. Wonderful.
* “Grey Street” Hotel, an older, commercial, lower ranking hotel, but still very fine for us.
Given that most evacuees from the NEI were allowed an 8 month temporary stay in Australia, how were you able to remain in this country? We could not and we did not. Father was forced to go back to the NEI and Mother and we went to Holland by ship, the Volendam.
What was your migration status at this time? Evacuee.
Are you in contact with friends, family or other Dutch persons who lived in the NEI? Yes, family which is still in Holland.
Please feel free to provide further comments/information: I am happy to provide this extensive information in interviews.
FAMILY INFORMATION
Who in your family made the decision to emigrate? I did, when I was still 20 years old.
What country was your father born in? Rotterdam, Holland.
Your mother? Leeuwarden, Holland.
Your grandfather? Both grandfathers in Holland.
Your grandmother? Both grandmothers in Holland.
What year was your father born? 1901. Your mother? 1911. Your children? N/A
How many brothers and sisters do you have?
* Two brothers, born in Java.
* One stepbrother and ons stepsister, born in Java.
* On half-sister, born in Amsterdam.
Please feel free to make further comments/information:
I am happy to provide this extensive information in interviews.
EARLY LIFE IN AUSTRALIA
Prior to your arrival, what was your image of Australia?
* Knew nothing at all of Australia prior to my first visit of seven months in 1946, as an evacuee.
* Already knew a fair bit of Australia prior to my emigration in 1952.
What was your first impression when you arrived? Delighted excitement with the adventure.
What expectations of Australia did you have at that point in time? “The world”, with liberal doses of realism.
In what way did the experiences of the next few years meet those early expectations?
In every way.
Looking back, what do you feel were the major challenges of migration? My adjustment as a newcomer to my new environment and culture. Fortunately I could already speak, read and write reasonably good English.
Do you think it was easier or harder for you than other family members? Why? N/A.
What were the difficulties of being a parent at this time? N/A
And the difficulties of being a wife? A husband? A child? I married in Melbourne in 1994 to an Australian. The normal marital adjustments of any young couple. It was possibly a little more difficult for my wife.
What were the rewards of living in Australia at that time? The freedom to do what I wanted to do, and freedom from stifling bureaucracy in Holland.
Were there advantages or benefits that you did not expect? If yes, please say what they were. No, I think I was pragmatic and realistic in my expectations.
What do you consider to be your major achievements since coming to this country?
* I established a thriving manufacturing business, designing, building and installing high-class timber mantle pieces, as well as copper and steel fireplaces.
* I became a central figure in Australia:
** Raising public awareness of natural therapies and their benefits for society.
** The administration of one of the premier natural therapy associations.
** The administration of one of the premier natural therapy colleges.
** Defining and implementing the interrelationships of the natural therapies in Australia, establishing minimum professional educational standards, establishing a national accreditation system for practitioners, and obtaining recognition of this accreditation system by the vast majority of the health funds for rebates to their members.
* I have conducted an acupuncture practice continually from 1975 to date.
In what ways do you think immigration has changed you? It has given me a wonderful life in Australia and allowed me to do things, which I may not have been able to achieve in Holland.
In the long term, do you think migration has had a positive or negative impact upon you? Yes, most certainly a positive impact.
How many times have you travelled back home since your arrival? About five times.
How did you experience the Netherlands on your return? As expected, any dynamic community would develop in time, but many things have, thankfully, remained sufficiently the same to give one the grace and memories of tradition. Holland is, after all, my country with family roots.
Please feel free to provide further comments or information: I am happy to provide this extensive information in interviews.
ACCOMMODATION
Where did you stay when you first arrived in Australia? Was it a camp, your own home, a rental property or did you stay with relatives?
* On arrival in 1952, Australian friends had arranged a room for me with a young New Zealand couple with one small daughter, at 87 Leopold Street South Yarra, Melbourne, for many months.
* I then rented a room in St Kilda, for some months.
* I subsequently moved to a room in an old rooming home in Park Street South Yarra.
* When I married, my wife and I rented a flat in “Passadena Mansions’, on the corner of Commercial Road and St Kilda Road, St Kilda.
* My wife and I then went by ship to England.
If a camp: N/A
Do you remember how many homes and towns/cities you have lived in since your arrival? Yes, every one of them, plus before and since.
Where do you currently live? Is it a flat, a villa, a house, nursing home, or an other residence? A house, which my (second) wife and I own outright.
How many years have you lived there? On 15 November this year: 30 years.
How many other people live with you? No one else.
What is their relationship to you? N/A
Please feel free to provide further comments/information: As before.
ADAPTATION
When you first arrived were you excited? Scared? Homesick? Exited, when I arrived as an young adult migrant in 1952.
Did you feel isolated? No, only occasionally lonely. I met up with a middle-aged Australian couple who had become friends when we arrived from the NEI in 1946. They were wonderful friends.
Were you able to make friends quickly? I started to have Australian friends fairly soon, and I met my first wife within a year after my arrival.
Did understandings of aanpassen and religion help you to settle? If yes, in what way? Aanpassen has been easy all along, and I do not have, nor need religion, even though there have been exceptionally difficult times during my life in Australia.
What do you feel was the most important element, or factor, that contributed to a satisfying life as a migrant in Australia? Australia’s outlook and social culture, and my comfortable feelings about that.
Do you think it is true that the Dutch were better able to settle in Australia than many other migrant groups? Yes, definitely.
If yes, then why? Because we Dutch have similar – western European – cultural backgrounds to those of the British, and we do deliberately make efforts to adjust and “settle in”.
If you had your time over again, would you emigrate to Australia? Most certainly.
What do you imagine your life would be like had you, or your parents, not come to Australia? I would hate to think.
Are you now a naturalised Australian? Yes.
If yes, when and where were you naturalised? In 1961.
Why was this important to you? If I was going to live in Australia I wanted to “go the whole hog” and live, love and laugh Australian and marry an Australian wife as well. This is precisely what happened.
RELIGION Not Applicable
What is your religious background? Nil
LANGUAGE USE
What was the first language you learned? Dutch.
How well did you speak English when you first arrived in Australia.
* In 1946: nil.
* In 1952: quite good.
Do you think that it is difficult to interpret Dutch into English? No, not for me.
How many languages are now spoken in your home other than your birth language? Almost entirely English.
What is the main language spoken in your home today? Almost entirely English.
What language do you speak most often with your close friends? Almost entirely English.
What language do you speak most often with your parents? They are now dead, but since I migrated to Australia I tended to speak half-and-half Dutch and English
What language do you speak most often with your relatives? Almost entirely English.
What language do you speak most often with your children? N/A
WORK AND PROFESSION
What qualifications did you have prior to your arrival in Australia?: HBS and Certificate from the School for Sugar Industry in Amsterdam.
What work/profession/trade did you do? Sugar chemistry – laboratory quality control.
Please describe your first job in Australia.
* Bottle washer for three months in Model Dairy in Kew, Melbourne.
* Laboratory chemist for three and a half years at the CSR Sugar Refinery in Yarraville, Melbourne.
Have you had many changes of career in this country? Yes, several.
What is your current profession/work/business? I have been and am a professional clinical acupuncturist for the last 30 years, as well as college and professional association executive administrator during the first 20 (of those 30) years.
Is there a work ethic that you live by? Yes, including a professional code of ethics.
What are your current average weekly earnings? (Optional question) I am now 74 years of age, I am semi-retired and conduct my clinical practice for only two days a week.
Are you an employee? No.
Are you self-employed? If yes, what is the nature of your business? I am, and have been self-employed for many years. I am a clinical acupuncturist.
Do you work full-time or part-time? Part time.
Are you now retired? If yes, are you on an Australian pension, A Dutch pension, a self-funded retiree, or other?
* I have been semi-retired since October 1992.
* Yes, I have an Australian pension.
* I have a WUF pension as a result of health damage incurred in the Japanese camps from 1942 until August 1945.
Other sources of income? No.
Do you have any memberships with professional bodies? Yes, the Australian Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine Association Ltd.
Please feel free to provide further comments/information: I am happy to provide this extensive information in interviews.
EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND
What is your current level of education? I have a Batchelor of Acupuncture, and have done many courses in a large range of studies during the last 50 years.
And the level of education of your grandfather? My paternal grandfather was an Apotheker in Rotterdam. I know almost nothing about my maternal grandfather.
Your grandmother? None.
Your father? Father was a professional photographer and obtained his qualifications in Germany.
Your mother? Mother was a qualified school teacher in Holland.
Your siblings?
* Frank, brother: Bachelor of Architecture in Melbourne.
* Hugo, stepbrother: Batchelor of Education(?) in London, teaching English.
* Max, brother: Bachelor of Engineering(?), Leiden.
* Marijcke, stepsister: Not known.
* Norma (Sandy), half sister: Not known.
And your adult children? N/A
CLUBS – SPORT OR SOCIAL – MEMBERSHIP
What leisure/recreational/sporting activities do you have in Australia?
* Reading.
* Studying.
* Writing – technical and philosophical subjects.
* Music.
* I am also artistic and very handy with physical construction.
What is the ethnicity of your main social network in Australia? Australian.
Did you become a member of Dutch Clubs, Organisations, Societies and Church Groups following your arrival in Australia?
* Dutch Australian Cultural Society, Sydney.
* Rembrandt Dutch Club, St Marys, NSW.
If yes, what were the benefits of membership? Dutch Cultural companionship.
What current memberships do you have (if any)?
- Rembrandt Dutch Club, St Marys, NSW.
Are your children and grandchildren members of Dutch Clubs, Organisations, Societies and Church Groups? N/A
AGED CARE FACILITIES IN AUSTRALIA
What is your current place of residence :Private home.
Are you receiving an Aged Care package? For example:
Dutch community or mainstream service: No.
Provision of meals: No.
Help with gardening: Yes.
Help with cleaning: Yes.
Help with shopping: No.
Other help: No.
Do you currently have specific health needs and concerns? No.
Would it be easier for you if your helpers spoke the Dutch language? N/A
HEALTH STATUS
What is your current health status? Good.
Provide further information if you wish:
* Residual bowel problems from the Japanese camps.
* Residual emotional concerns.
* High blood pressure.
* Weak kidneys.
* Right hip reconstruction.
* Prostate problems.
* Over weight.
Do you prefer the mainstream medical system in Australia or Dutch homeopathic medicine? Other preferences?
* Mainstream medical system.
* Acupuncture and naturopathy.
* Therapeutic massage.
What do you consider to be the major barriers to healthcare for Dutch people in Australia? I have no opinion.
DUTCH IDENTITY
What does being ‘Dutch’ mean to you? How important is this to you? I am immensely proud of my Dutch and my mother’s Friesian heritage, even though I am most happy to be an Australian as well.
Do you feel more ‘Dutch’ or ‘Australian’ or ‘Dutch-Indonesian’ or a ‘global citizen’?
I feel, and am very happy to be both Dutch and Australian.
Is there a noticeable difference between the Dutch in the Netherlands and the Dutch in Australia? Yes, we Dutch in Australia are typical expatriates, and love our ‘freedoms’ here. Many of us could no longer fit comfortably back into Dutch society in Holland.
Which of the following do you consider captures the essence of Dutch Identity? (You can tick more than one box)
A character trait:
An attitude:
A moral value:
à A custom or tradition:
à A piece of clothing: Dutch national dresses and clogs.
An influence of history:
à Understandings of aanpassen:
Family traits or values:
à A place:
Music:
Food:
Other:
Is there anything you believe to be uniquely Dutch? Yes, its history.
Which particular aspect of Dutch identity do you celebrate? Integrity and dependability.
Is the ‘tall poppy’ syndrome identified within Australian culture also a part of Dutch culture? No.
Is there a particular aspect of Dutch identity which you feel might better be left in the past? Small mindedness and arrogance.
Some people believe that the Dutch are ‘arrogant’ and ‘determined’. Do you believe this to be true? If so, why do you think this may be so? Yes, partly because of the way we phase our requests in shops like: I must have this or that. (Ik moet dit of dat hebben)
What do you remember of representations of the Dutch in books, film, or television?
I have had little experience with that.
How do you feel the media presents the Dutch? Very favourably and sympathetically.
Are Dutch men portrayed differently from Dutch women? If so, in what way?
I have had no experience with that.
Apart from language use, how might you know that somebody in the same room with you is Dutch? One rarely really knows.
Which particular historical, political, religious, artistic or business figures have left their mark, or helped to shape, Dutch identity? Dutch companies like Phillips, Mr. Dusseldorf and Lend Lease Corporation, Shell, Dutch dredging companies, Queens Wilhelmina and Juliana.
What other cultures do you feel have impacted on the Dutch psyche? The French, Germans, Scandinavians, Indonesia, the USA.
In what way? Too broad an issue, even for a summary.
HERITAGE AND IDENTITY
What Dutch inventions, contemporary or historic, have contributed to world knowledge and culture? Leeuwenhoek and his telescopes.
What aspect of Dutch architecture (a particular building, a church, a home, or one part of the construction of such buildings) do you consider unique to Dutch culture in Australia? I have no opinion or experience.
Are you aware of any Dutch geographical names in Australia and their origins?
Yes, Tasman Sea, Van Diemens Land, and others.
If you were in a position to leave ‘something’ or ‘some things’ for future generations of Dutch to better understand the Dutch-Australian community of the 20th and 21st centuries, what would this be? Please feel free to use your imagination?
* My significant number of beautiful timber mantle pieces in Sydney.
* My influence on the natural therapies in Australia.
* My forthcoming thesis on the size, age and ‘history’ of the cosmos, the structural configuration of gravitational energy and the quark, and the putative source of gravitational energy.
What memorabilia do you have in your home that you would never let go? The Dutch family flag, which was hoisted in Banju Biru camp and informed the Dutch inmates of the camp and the Indonesian population that the war was over.
Are there towns/suburbs, buildings, or areas in Australia that you consider, in some way, to characterise or capture Dutch identity or history? If so, why? I do not know of any.
What is your favourite Dutch film? Why? I don’t know any.
What is your favourite Dutch book and poem? Why? I don’t know any.
What is your favourite Dutch song and dance? Why? No preference.
FOOD
What elements of traditional Dutch cuisine have you retained in Australia?
Indonesian food and sambals, Appelstroop, stroopwafels, oliebollen, rookworst, ketjap manis, ikan teri, trassi, and nasi goreng.
What kind of food do you eat during family gatherings? Australian food with sambal.
Are there Dutch foods that you would like to eat, but find it difficult to buy in Australia? Yes, most, and especially genuine Indonesian food.
What is your favourite Dutch dish? Smoked eal and ‘niewe haring met uitjes’.
What is your least favourite Dutch dish? No idea.
Do you now eat foods from other cultures? Oh yes, Italian, Greek, Lebanese, Indian, Thai, Chinese.
IS THERE SOMETHING IMPORTANT THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO TELL, THAT HAS NOT BEEN INCLUDED IN THIS QUESTIONNAIRE? Please feel free to elaborate.
Yes, I have built a replica working model of one of about five Veloos, a camp ambulance, originally made by older boys in our camp, out of scrap timber, bed frames, four bicycle wheels and a steering wheel and mechanism from abandoned motor cars. I will probably eventually donate this Veloo that to a war museum or any other appropriate organization which acknowledges the ingenuity of people in extreme conditions.
CONSENT
Do we have your permission to use the information you have supplied in any forthcoming publications on the Dutch through the MERC Research Unit of the Australia Research Institute at Curtin University? Please note that there will be NO reference to your name or to any details that might identify you:
à Yes No
Alternatively, would you like your name to be included in any forthcoming MERC Research Unit publications on the Dutch?
à Yes No
