Dutch settlers in Ulverstone, Tasmania
Compiled by Elizabeth Nickols
(27 families)
Excerpts (and some additional notation by Kees Wierenga)
Brandsema, Wilko (Bill) and Hendrikje (Hennie) nee Wind(pp.1 – 9, 20 photos)
Wilko was born in 1910 in Stadskanaal, the son of a baker. Hennie was born a year later, her father a dressmaker, haberdasher and pattern cutter. He was heavily involved in the Reformed Church, and conducted a band, she sang in a choral group.
Wilko and Hennie took over his father’s bakery when they got married in 1935. He was actively involved in the Underground, housed and employed many Resistance workers and others needing to be invisible to the Gestapo. A Bronze Medal and a Certificate of appreciation signed by General De Gaulle was awarded to him for assisting French escapees.
Class and religious barriers returned to civil society after the war, to the chagrin of the idealist Wilco. The bakery was becoming obsolete and he began to see that migration was a possible escape route from the bakery and a limiting community.
The family migrated in 1951 and settled in Launceston. Wilco worked for two bakers, and the children went to school where they were given a hard time. The opportunity to swap properties with Jake Hendriks at Turners Beach was grabbed with both hands.
They first established a poultry farm with 600 chooks, and then gave their attention to vegetables. This was not always successful, and Wilco eventually passed this on to his son John. In his retirement Wilco enjoyed patisserie baking, specializing in family birthday cakes. He died in 1998, two years after his wife.
Their two daughters married on the Central Coast and had families of their own. John took over the growing business.
Brandsema, John and Anna nee de Puit (pp.11 – 14, 14 photos)
This couple shared a passion for hydroponics, but they were pioneers in the field, and there were a lot of problems that needed experimentation to resolve. They started with mixed vegetables, and eventually specialised in glass house tomatoes.
In the 1990s their two sons, Marcus and Anthony, joined the business, and took over in 2007.
The family celebrate St Nicolas Day (5 Dec) in the Dutch tradition so that the children and their partners can share Christmas in the extended family.
Compagne , Roelof and Annechien (Annie) nee Koens (pp.15 – 24, 25 photos)
Roelof Compagne was born in 1905, one of six children. The family moved to where the work was, beginning in the province of Drenthe and finishing in North Holland. They mostly worked in the bulb industry.
Annie Koens was born in 1909, the middle of five children. Her early life was in Drenthe, where her father operated a barge which was pulled along the canals by the family. They also moved to North Holland, to a town called Heerhugowaard (not Heerkugovaard). Her father Anne (a common man’s name in that area) and mother picked up work as it could be found.
Roelof and Annie met when she was 18, he 22. They married in 1931 and had three boys and two girls, Arend (a.k.a Aart, Charlie), Hendrikje (Hennie), Jan (John), Anne (Arne) and Lubertha Maria (Betsy).
The decision to migrate became a decision to migrate to Australia because Annie’s sister was already here (with husband and six children) and so could sponsor them. They arrived in Ulverstone just before Christmas 1952.
The first months were very difficult with school and language problems and living in a shed, sharing a toilet with 14 people, cooking on an open fire. The family did every job known to man to earn a living. One of the problems they had, in common with many migrants, was that their qualifications were not recognised here.
Roel died in 1987, and Annie in 2001, at 91 years old.
de Boer, Koenraad and Agatha nee Boon (pp.25 – 32, 17 photos)
Koenraad was one of nine children, born in 1913. After school years he undertook an apprenticeship to become a motor mechanic. Agatha was one of two, born in 1914. Her father was the licensee of the tavern in Schagen (North Holland). She was always happy, in her courting years, to visit Koenraad’s family because the larger family always had such a lot of fun.
Agatha and Koenraad’s marriage caused difficulties because it was a mixed marriage, but the couple were fully supported by their families. During the occupation Koenraad had to hide from the Germans, but the family did not grow hungry because the milk factory for which he worked looked after their employees.
After the war Koenraad ran a service station, where he met Kees Weeda. Kees was planning to emigrate, and later sent letters to Koenraad about how good his life was in Tasmania. In 1953 the family, with six children, set sail, with a suitcase each and a small box of essentials and sentimental items.
Koenraad found work in his field quite quickly, and the Good Neighbour Council helped them to learn English, local customs, imperial measurements, local currency and awareness of swear words.
Eric Close, the local grocer, is mentioned in nearly every family story in this book as being very helpful.
The family was very much a Dutch household – they ate Dutch food, observed Dutch special days, spoke Dutch at home, read Dutch books. They had to make their own friends as they did not join a church community.
In 1959 Koenraad purchased a farm at Riana, milking 28 cows. It was not a financial success, and he had to return to paid work as a mechanic. Thirteen years later they sold the farm and settled near Ulverstone. He died in 1984, she died in 2004.
De Jonge, Jan and Geertje Hillechiena (Ge) nee Salomons (pp.265 – 275, 19 photos)
Jan was born in 1917 in Groningen, one of nine children. His parents were drapers. Five of the children migrated to Australia, two to Canada, and only two stayed home. A hiding place under the display window of the shop was used by family friends Engel Sypkes and Roelf Vos during the war.
Ge was born in 1921, a canal skippers daughter. She was the seventh of eight children. She also had eight children – half born in Holland, the rest born in Tasmania.
Entertainment in those early days included Jan reading aloud while his wife knitted and mended.
The decision to migrate was influenced by the Russian threat and the high burden of Dutch taxation and red tape. They took two pre-fab houses and a huge crate of household items. They left the Netherlands on 29/3/1951.
The trip was very tiring for Ge – women were accommodated on a different deck to the men, and she had the little ones including a baby that always woke at 4 a.m. for a feed, and a two year old who refused to eat all that strange food. The children were not allowed on deck unaccompanied (family photos in the Channel Museum display show minimal railing).
Rev John Vanderbom led a devotion every evening, a precious time for those who attended. They disembarked on 3 May. Some of the children had the measles and were sent to hospital. Parents were not allowed to visit. Jan went ahead while the children were sick.
Ge spent some weeks in the Burnie hospital and the community rallied. Follow up treatment included tablets that cost four pounds each, but together with the prayers of the congregation, she was healed.
Church was a five mile walk each Sunday, the children often without shoes. After a year Jan found work on the night soil cart. A year later he had the contract on his own and on his conditions regarding timing. He was able to earn a lot of money in the process.
Every day Jan made 20 concrete blocks to build his house with. In 1956 Jan and Ge had paid their house off, so he quit his contract with the Council.
The family moved to Longford and Jan became a Rawleigh’s rep. The family had good support from the local Baptist Church and from the Reformed Church in Launceston. Jan added flannelette sheets to his product lines, and then more Manchester, which went so well he dropped Rawleigh’s.
The family now moved to Launceston so that the children could go to catechism and have Christian friends. The shop they opened in Brisbane St was in the wrong location so they moved to St John St and thrived.
In 1965 the family moved to Rosevears, which urgently needed restoration, as did the garden. The location meant lots of taxi duties for Jan bringing and fetching children from a multitude of church activities, but he found the drive relaxing and often sang hymns on the journey.
Family holidays were in a tent at Stanley, sleeping on straw filled hessian bags. Later they were a little more extravagant, eventually driving in their van to Noosa via the Empress of Australia for the Hobart – Sydney leg.
Jan died after a stroke in 1997, at 80 y.o. Ge died in 2006 at 84 y.o.
de Puit , Adriaan and Anna nee Pietersma (pp.33 – 38, 16 photos)
Adriaan de Puit was born in 1915 in North Brabant. Anna was born in Friesland in 1916, but the family moved to North Brabant for work opportunities.
The couple met in the Philips factory, where she learned to solder, a skill she later passed on to her teenage boys in the 1960s. Adriaan was captured and taken prisoner to Germany, but later released. The imprisonment took a toll on his health to such an extent his wife didn’t recognise him.
Adriaan had mechanical experience and competence which often stood him in good stead. He also had a growing desire to emigrate. Doctors said the health of his first born, Henk, would improve in a drier climate, which helped Anne to come to terms with the idea of leaving the Netherlands.
The family left Rotterdam in 1956 with little money or luggage because of severe restrictions. The children thought it was a great adventure, and Gerard’s energy was harnessed by pairing him with an old sailor, learning many valuable lessons. He established many friendships amongst the crew.
The family was sponsored by the Reformed Church and were made welcome with a house, furnishings and groceries all arranged and ready for them. That was as good as it got for quite a while. Adriaan’s trade qualifications were not recognized, and the English language proved to be a formidable obstacle. The housing situation was a temporary arrangement – with the assistance of the Good Neighbour Council they found something more permanent.
At school teachers made life difficult, sometimes by exception, sometimes by discrimination, and fellow students teased. Winning a sack race helped win recognition and acceptance.
In 1962 the family moved to Kingston because of the better opportunities there. There was a continuing non-recognition of previous qualifications, and although there was some work in his field, eventually they both had cleaning jobs and took in boarders.
Adriaan died in 1982 and Anne in 1999.
Dubbeld , Daniel and Anna nee Been (pp.39 – 45, 12 photos)
Daniel and Anna grew up in the same building in Rotterdam. The ground floor was his father’s workshop, the first floor was his family home and the second floor was the home of his future wife’s family.
They married in 1935 and had seven children over the next 18 years. The family emigrated in 1952, when Daniel was 51 years old. Anna was 12 years his junior. On arrival they found that their sponsor had filed for bankruptcy, and their luggage was badly damaged during unloading. A member of the Good Neighbour Council encouraged them to go to Ulverstone where there was a migrant hostel and other Dutch migrant families.
Work for Daniel and school for the children was arranged in the next two days. After some years Anna qualified as a teacher (dressmaking) and was appointed to the high school in Queenstown. The family lived and worked there until Daniel died in 1968. Anna returned to Ulverstone and lived there until she died in 1996.
Only one of the Dubbeld children married a partner of Dutch descent. The family became globe trotters and are now scattered over the face of the earth, from Canada to Darwin, and every state of Australia. The family tree of Daniel and Anna now counts seven children, seventeen grandchildren, twenty six great grandchildren and two great great grandchildren (Dec 2016).
HEIJ, Gerrit (Gert) and Willemintje (Wil) nee van Ojik (pp.46 – 60, 34 photos)
Gert was born in 1914. His father was a victim of the Spanish Flu in 1918. His mother remarried, but he died in a train accident. She married a third time, to a widower with four children. After he finished his schooling, Gert worked in a cigar factory for twenty years because most of his friends worked there.
Wil was born in 1916. She and Gert were married in 1935. They lived in a house typical of the period – no bathroom, one tap, laundry water heated overnight by a kerosene burner, house heated by a coal fire. During the war they hid Jews, and were betrayed by neighbours. The Jews were taken away, Gert & Wil escaped. After the war living conditions were very poor. They had eight children, the last two were born in Tasmania.
The decision to migrate was influenced by the poor economic conditions and the wish to provide a better future for their children. They chose Tasmania because a family member was already there. They arrived here just before Christmas in 1954.
Their first accommodation in Ulverstone was liveable but even smaller than what they had left behind – one small room and one very small, a minute kitchen area and no bathroom. Coping with the new language and shops proved to be very difficult. Fellow members of the Reformed Church proved to be a big help and fill the void of family.
After twelve months the family bought their own house. It had an internal toilet and a bathroom, which made them feel as if they lived in heaven. The neighbours were good to them, and often came to help. Gert took on a fruit merchant business, kept a vegie garden, and kept a pig which rapidly got bigger because she was fed all the bad fruit and even more quickly became quite small again.
In his late fifties Gert suffered badly from home-sickness, and on doctor’s advice, the family, bar two girls, moved back to the Netherlands. Now the youngest children had the schooling difficulties their elder siblings had endured. Gert died in 1985, and Wil died in 2002.
Hendriks – brothers Jaap, Berend, Jan, Jacobus & Rijk (pp.61 – 77, 46 photos)
Jan Hendriks, born 1923 in Utrecht (province,) was one of the first to respond to an advertisement placed in the Dutch newspapers by Jan de Vries. The family had suffered in the German occupation, and he had found it hard to settle in the years after the war.
Over the next twelve months four of his brothers followed, leaving mum & dad, and a brother and sister behind.
Grada van Wijk, fiancée of Jan Hendriks, followed him several months later. (early 1950) A year later, Jaap, eldest brother of Jan, arrived with his wife and two children. He built several houses in Devonport and Ulverstone, but his big break came when he won a tender to supply houses for Hydro workers in the Central Highlands. He employed all his brothers on that project.
Jaap had several other successful projects in Launceston, Latrobe and Devonport until he died from a work-site accident in 1961.
The third brother to emigrate, Berend, was married to Leni, a sister of Grada. This family arrived with four children in September 1950 after a difficult voyage. Although he had lost an eye in an industrial accident, he was accepted by Australia as a migrant.
Berend (Bern) was always restless, and returned to the Netherlands thirteen times. He died at 91 y.o. in 2016, six years after his wife. He and Leni were proud of their six children, their Australian partners and twenty grandchildren.
Jacobus (Co) was the fourth brother to emigrate, and arrived in mid-1950, after doing military service in Indonesia. He married Chris van Zwieten in 1954. She had migrated with her family in 1950. Her family and the Hendriks had known of each other, but didn’t make contact until in Tasmania. The couple had two children. Co was an outstanding cook, and dreamed of owning his own patisserie, but made his living as a bricklayer and drainage plumber. The family were active members of the Presbyterian Church.
Rijk was the youngest brother to emigrate. He never enjoyed good health, and was only accepted into Australia because of a substitution of X-rays. He worked for his brothers until he succumbed to his disease in 1963, at 33 y.o.
Knaap, Antonius Gerardus (Tom) and Wilhelmina (Wil) nee Bruins (pp.78 – 87, 19 photos)
Tom was born in 1934, and has vivid memories of the war years in North Holland. At the age of twelve he began an apprenticeship in boiler maker/welder, and qualified at the age of seventeen. He was a very good sprinter, and met Wil, his future wife, at the athletic club where they were both members.
After completing his national service in Indonesia, Tom was restless. Wil’s eldest sister had already migrated to Tasmania, and joining her meant they could bypass the migrant camp experience. They arrived in October 1958. Their knowledge of English was very limited – road, light and train was about the extent of it.
Tom’s papers were not initially accepted, and then delayed due to the illness of an official’s wife. It was a year before he could work in his trade at Comalco in Georgetown. After three years they moved to Ulverstone, and ordered a taxi to take them to church on the first Sunday. The driver assumed they were Reformed Church because they were Dutch. At the Catholic Church they were made very welcome – it became the centre of their social life and they joined a Bible Study group.
On doctor’s advice the family returned to the Netherlands for two years in 1971. They returned to Australia with an extra appreciation of the space and relaxed lifestyle here.
Kranenburg, Johan (Joop) and Catharina nee Lalleman (pp.88 – 100, 24 photos)
Catharina was born in Leiden in 1921. Her family moved to Ede, where her father had good work prospects. She trained in household skills, especially pattern and dressmaking.
Joop was born in Ede in 1915, and worked for his father as a butcher. When Joop and Catharina first met, in the street, he asked her to go to dancing lessons with him. They married in 1942. Joop was heavily involved with the Resistance, especially supplying meat to the Underground.
Joop’s eldest brother, Bert, was interested in migrating, so the two came together to Australia. Only after many months did they choose to go to Tasmania. They settled in Ulverstone and got work skinning rabbits.
Joop (John) bought a block of land and sent for his wife and two children. From Schiphol International Airport to an old tin shed in Wynyard (airport) took six days.
There were the usual hardships settling in – primitive accommodation, language problems, difficulties with shopping. Eric Close, the grocer, also gets praised in this story for his helpfulness. Outside the house, John and Cathy insisted on being Australian – at home it was traditional Dutch food and customs.
They worked all manner of jobs as opportunity provided. Cathy’s father came for a long visit after her mum died, and made himself quite useful improving their living conditions.
After about ten years the opportunity to begin a poultry farm presented. They grabbed this with both hands – although Cathy did all the work with some help and John stayed in the butcher’s shop. Later he sold apples door to door.
After 23 years they returned to the Netherlands for holidays, and thereafter made many trips all over the world and through Australia, some with Roelf and Miep Vos.
In his 90th year John took ill and died. Cathy died five years later, in 2010. They had four children, and five grandchildren.
Luyks, Domenicus (Dirk) and Matilda (Tilly) nee Cramer (pp.101 – 104, 6 photos)
Dirk was born in Woensdrecht in 1931. That made him a useful teenager on his father’s small farm during the war. Before then they had grown tobacco, during the war they grew poppy seed and harvested the oil.
Matilda (Tilly) was born in Vaals (Limburg, close to the German border) in 1930, and had seven siblings.
They were married in 1955 and worked in factories in Eindhoven. They lived in small rooms in ruined houses because demand was far greater than supply. A TV advertisement sparked their interest in Tasmania. They migrated in 1958.
For the first nine years they lived in Launceston, then to Savage River for work at the new mine there. Their holidays were usually at Ulverstone, although they had also been back ‘home’ twice to see the family, and that’s where they retired after 18 years on the West Coast.
In retirement Dirk helped Bas de Haan with lawn mower repairs, and they hosted family from Holland, sightseeing around Tasmania.
Tilly died in 2016.
Meurs, Herman Theodoor and Johanna Wendelina (Leni) nee Bakker
(pp.105 – 115, 26 photos)
Herman was born in 1913 and worked in the Merchant Navy for 11 years, then as a truck driver, as a handyman in a hotel and as a carpenter.
Leni was born in 1914. She was a bus conductor when she met Herman, and they married in 1936. They had two daughters.
After the war Herman wanted the family to have a better life. He applied to migrate to America, Canada and South Africa, and was rejected by them all. In 1952 the family migrated to Tasmania. In Ulverstone they were met by the van Beeks, family of one of Willy’s classmates.
Life was tough, and they were all very homesick, especially for family and friends. They had language problems, and with some local foods, especially coffee. Sawdust on the butchery floor was a novelty, but the choice of meat cuts was amazing.
Herman soon found work as a carpenter, Leni had several cleaning jobs, and Willy did some housekeeping.
The death of his mother was a bitter pill for Herman so he resolved that Leni return to visit her family, which she did in 1962. Later the couple had several holidays with family, but were always happy to come back home to Australia.
In retirement they also travelled extensively on the mainland, and in New Zealand. Leni died in 1986, and Herman in 1988. Their daughter Willy is now retired and living in Ulverstone, her sister Dini raised a family in Adelaide and lives there.
Pieterse, Jacobus and Adriana Jacoba nee Jansen (pp.117 – 126, 20 photos)
Jacobus (Jack) was born in Leiden in 1919. Adriana (Jaanie) was born in Anna Paulowna (N.H.) in the same year. They were at the same school but had no liking for each other. They met again when they were 18 – she had tripped at a fireworks display and he had helped her up – but the friendship only grew slowly from there.
Jaanie and one of her brothers found work in Den Helder in 1940, so the family moved there, just months before the German invasion.
Jaanie and Jack were married in 1941 and moved to the island of Texel, where he had a job as accountant with the local council. The war years were very difficult for the family, and there were many close calls with German soldiers.
Jack’s father Leendert had been in Dachau concentration camp with Kees Weeda and others. Leendert had been killed there.
After the war housing was in short supply and sharing did not always work. At one stage they lived next to a family de Boer. This was the start of a friendship of 70 years that carried through to Australia.
A delegation promoting migration to Australia visited their town four years after the war. They were already interested, now they committed to leaving. The boat trip was terrible – the men were separated from the women, and the small children were taken away to be looked after by nurses until an outbreak of measles and chickenpox created a genuine demand for the sick bay.
Whilst in the Bathurst camp they received good reports from Teunis van Rooyen regarding Tasmania and prospects there, so they decided to take a chance in Penguin.
After moving to Ulverstone they found work with some other Dutchies in the Hydro villages. During the 1960s and 1970s there was plenty of work in the painting business.
Jack died in 1974 and Jaanie died in 2016. They had three children and six grandchildren.
Smink, Theodorus (Theo) and Johanna (Jo) Clasina nee Ten Ham (pp.130 – 142, 26 photos)
Theo was one of six children, born in Amersfoort in 1914. Jo was one of four children, born in 1921 in Nykerk. They were married in 1942. Their first child lived only two weeks, the next five were born between 1944 and 1953 in Holland, and the last was born in Tasmania in 1958.
Theo was in the fruit industry and had glasshouses. After the war he and Jo had a delicatessen and fruit shop. It was here that Theo figured he was working two days a week for the government and maybe it was time to migrate. They accepted sponsorship from Herman and Leni Meurs in Tasmania, and arrived in 1955.
Theo found work with Jack Pieterse painting in the Hydro villages. The children went to Sacred Heart school, where the nuns were very understanding. Jo, at home, always had trouble with English. Theo saved up and bought a farm within two years and started growing vegetables. His market garden thrived.
In 1960 the Hydro connected them and their neighbours to the grid. The family promptly bought a kettle, toaster, refrigerator and washing machine. In the same year the PMG installed a telephone line. The families connected to these services had to supply and install their own poles to utility specifications.
Before the car was bought the family used pushbikes to get to Mass. If it was raining, Gerald and Maly Kramer would bring the family of eight, plus bikes, home in the bakery van. The family moved several times, the last move with an eye on retirement.
In 2001 Theo and Jo’s son John died in a tractor accident. Theo died suddenly four months later, and Jo died in 2007. They had 18 grandchildren.
Sypkes, Engel and Annie nee Vos (pp.141 – 149, 18 photos)
Engel was born in Borger in 1921, the youngest of four children. His parents had a prosperous drapery business, which was given to the eldest on his marriage as reward for 13 years unpaid contribution to the family business. The rest of the family then moved 25km and started anew. That business also went well but was destroyed by fire on the last day of the war.
The business was begun again a third time and soon took on an assistant, Annie Vos. She was born in 1921 in Wildervank, one of nine children. Annie had her eye on Engel before she started working for his family, and two years later they married. Engel also received the family business as a wedding gift, after six unpaid years helping the family.
The threat of another war, and a feeling of being crowded, prompted a decision to migrate, together with Roelf and Miep Vos, to Tasmania. Within a month of arrival in Ulverstone, they had both saved sufficient to place a deposit on beach side blocks with frontage on the Bass Highway.
Engel was determined to integrate, and spoke only English. After working in the cannery he had a job selling and laying carpets and then took to the road to sell Rawleigh products, where he won the ‘top salesman for Australia’ prize. He then bought the general store in Stanley, made that profitable and established a book and gift shop in Smithton. The family worked hard but the weekends were always kept for family outings and church activities.
After an overseas study trip, the family moved to Hobart to begin in the food industry. The first Purity supermarket was opened in November 1958 and became a market leader in retailing over the next 23 years. Annie was diagnosed with an incurable illness in 1979 and Engel’s fire dimmed. He sold the business to Woolworths. Annie died in 1983.
The following year Engel remarried and began new business ventures. The couple retired to Bribie Island in 1994, where Engel died in 2015 at 94 y.o. He and Annie had five children (two born in Australia) and eight grandchildren.
Van Beek, Evert and Elisabeth nee Jongschaap (pp.150 – 155, 17 photos)
Evert was born in 1901, one of four chidren. Elisabeth was born in 1903, one of eight children. They lived in Friesland, and were married in 1926. They had four children, including one during the war.
They decided to migrate although they owned their own home, and he had secure full time work as a carpenter, and they were financially secure, because their eldest daughter engaged to be married to Co Nyborg. His sister Corrie, married to Jaap Hendriks, urged Co to join them in Tasmania.
They arrived in 1951. Co and Aly were married at the end of the year, Evert found work, the girls found work. Elisabeth was isolated, unable to drive and homesick. She found support in letter writing with her family in Holland, in the Reformed Church, and with a brother in Launceston.
Evert was forced into early retirement after a factory accident. A long illness followed, and he died in 1977. Elisabeth’s final years were very happy, and she died in 1985. She had eight grandchildren. Aly often has regrets about migrating.
Van den Enden, Eldert (Eddie) and Frederika (Wil) nee Kayser (pp.156 – 166, 22 photos)
Eddie was born in Amsterdam in 1925. He was raised by his mother and Oma & Opa, where he became a convinced socialist for life. He also learned to dodge tax inspectors! He visited his father every Sunday until he migrated in 1950.
Wil was born in 1924 in The Hague. Her father Willem was a first class joiner and cabinet maker.
Eddie trained to be a fitter and turner, but couldn’t complete the course because of the war. He became an active member of the Resistance. This included sabotaging German ships in the dry dock whilst purportedly volunteering in the German Labour Service.
Eddie and Wil met through their work during the war but the first date did not generate a second date until her mum did some scheming. They decided to get married on September 6, 1944, but war time actions prevented that. The postponement was only for a week.
Eddie and Wil happened to be in a position to hear a broadcast about migrating to Australia, which really piqued his interest, but not hers. They completed and submitted the forms, and nothing happened, until everything happened suddenly and they were on their way.